"Drugs" :D

So whats your opinion on drugs. By drugs I mean "Marijuana, Acid, cocaine...etc etc". Do you guys like them? Use them? Why? Theres such a wide variety of opinions.

Personally, I kinda think they're tacky. Mostly because of the turn drugs have taken, I guess. This doesn't change my opinion on stoners or anything because they're not all the same but I have bad experiences with most. Many people told me i'd be "cooler" if i started smoking weed, but thats just dumb in my honest opinion.

Acid has always drawn me in though. What about you guys?

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Permalink Reply by Madamoiselle De Sade on June 16, 2010 at 9:08am

^^^That's the closest thing to "real talk" in this thread. Not coming from a perspective of "drugs are bad, don't do them/I'm trying to control your life" but the reality is, it's hard to quit and once you get in, you can't really get out. If you want to get into that world, go ahead but don't do it. ..wearing rose tinted shades.
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Frank Zappa: Now, let's talk about the drug problem. Drugs do not become a problem until the person who uses the drugs does something to you, or does something that would affect your life that you don't want to have happen to you, like an airline pilot who crashes because he was full of drugs. That's a drug problem. I believe that people have the right to commit suicide. You can stick a gun in your mouth. You can stick a needle in your arm. You can do whatever you want, but you own your own body. I think you do. Drugs become a problem when the person who uses them turns into an asshole, and they also become a problem when the person who manufactures and distributes them turns into a politician. That's the drug problem. Now, you want to fight the drug problem. You have to be realistic about what the problem is. The substance itself is not immoral. Without cocaine you're going to have a hell of a time at the dentist's office. You can't say, "We have to burn ever coca plant". Otherwise, no more Novocaine, buddy.

Bob Marshall: The dental hygiene dilemma

Frank Zappa: Yeah. So there are things that you have to consider. There are the fine, little points. The problem is that the public gets saturated with the rhetoric about "just say no to drugs, there's a drug problem", and this and that and it puts it into a context where it becomes a moral menace. It's not a moral problem. It is an economic problem. It is a social problem. It is a mental health problem. And it can be a matter of physical danger to you when you have people who have life-and-death control over other people, who are users and they can endanger the life, like a physician, who might use drugs, who might give you the wrong kind of an operation. Or different ways the person who uses the chemical can fuck up your life. That's what you've got to look out for, but the substance itself is neither here nor there, and the person has as much right to drink a beer as he does to use the substance. The only difference is we have prohibition now of these certain substances. If you'll let your mind drift back to the time there was prohibition against alcohol, think of what happened. Remember: those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Without Carry Nations, every Italian in the Mafia would be out of business right now. It was Carry Nations who put them into business. Because there was the law of supply and demand. People wanted to drink beer. They wanted to drink gin and a few guys say, "Hey, I don't care, I'm going to supply the demand", and they became billionaires. And they eventually found out and people got killed for years all during Prohibition. The machine gun was busy. People were dying because they wanted a beer, and the government literally could not enforce the prohibition on alcohol. And in the time that they had this moral law to keep people from drinking alcohol, they managed to create the empire of organized crime. And the same thing is happening with cocaine. A guy in the jungle with a swami shirt on some place is going to wind up ruling half the world because somebody decided that cocaine was a moral problem. Cocaine used to be an ingredient in Coca Cola. Was it a moral problem then?

Bob Marshall: That's well-spoken, and that distinguishes the difference between you and LaRouche because he thinks the solution is to continue banning them.

Frank Zappa: It won't work.
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I don't know if there's a way to "use drugs responsibly" because the circumstances in which drugs are used are irresponsible 99% of the time (it's a reaction to poor mental health; stress, anxiety, depression, social pressure to "fit in" and reduce your brain to mush. ..not being "creative" enough on your own =P and needing a substance to kick it up) and a symptom of the social problems that creates more problems.

I'm not sure where I stand on drugs most of the time but I do know from experiences of getting high to "open my mind" it was more of a crutch to me, personally. And around me, I see it used as a crutch that people think is enhancing them in some way when they are really unable to enhance themselves. To me, drugs are a lot like religion. I'm not totally against them (I like downers) but as far as enhancing creativity. ...I think that's a result of social bondage that strips us of our individuality over time and makes it harder for us to be creative without being contrived.

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Permalink Reply by LesYpersound on June 16, 2010 at 9:40am

hard to quit...?
i think withdrawal is a bitch from some illegal and prescription drugs.
but i do think for lots of drugs (caffeine and nicotine included) you foster that addiction and let yourself get sucked in... and if you do it long enough it does fuck with your brain and body (and sometimes that shit CAN be permanent--I checked in a patient who had a serious drug addiction throughout her twenties and by her mid-thirties she had developed ultrasensitivity and was extraordinarily susceptible to migraines). but i really don't think once you do it you're hooked kind of thing. to me what's scary and crazy about drug use for some ppl is the risk of psychosis and the "activation" of an underlying mental illness...

and there's no way to use drugs responsibility? disagree from personal experience and anecdotally. just because some (mos?) ppl use drugs for the "wrong reasons" doesn't mean they should be illegal necessarily. folk drink alcohol or impulsively shop for the wrong reasons too. prosecute the real crime committed by the person instead of drug use or drug possession. and i'm not sure if i want to be legalized... just de-criminalized.

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Permalink Reply by APX on June 16, 2010 at 10:47am

i still dont think weed is a drug. lol. ive been smoking it for 7 years(so many good people met and many experiences i will not forget) and ive done many others. i started with the pills and other shit at 16, but im 21 now but my list includes, in order, oxycontin, adderall, cocaine, vicodin, xanax, ecstasy, shrooms, acid, mdma, ketamine, and i even did robotripping lmfao. but heres how i see it. only in moderation, and if you try it once and dont like it then dont do it. its that simple.

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Permalink Reply by Madamoiselle De Sade on June 16, 2010 at 11:03am

"and there's no way to use drugs responsibility? disagree from personal experience and anecdotally. just because some (mos?) ppl use drugs for the "wrong reasons" doesn't mean they should be illegal necessarily. folk drink alcohol or impulsively shop for the wrong reasons too. prosecute the real crime committed by the person instead of drug use or drug possession. and i'm not sure if i want to be legalized... just de-criminalized."

True. That's like how drugs = creativity is not always correct. Just because it worked for some people does not mean it will work for everyone or that it even helps people get a leg up on lost artistic/intellectual potential in the first place.

But still, not everyone who uses drugs has the same reason for using them (except for the need and physical sensation to give their lives some meaning and/or fulfillment like religion or a cause; holy people are pushers) or the same mindset about harmful vs non-harmful behavior done to self and others so the results won't always be pretty. Most of the time the results aren't pretty. For every 1 person that uses them "responsibly" there are 100 not using them responsibly because responsibility is the last thing on their minds. It's sort of like how

Libertarians think just because they have the intellect/respect to exist without laws and regulations that everyone else can or has the same intellect/respect as well. Idealism.

Not everyone using "irresponsibly" commits "crimes" that can be prosecuted but they do damage- underlying mental illness/poor mental health can create the need for a coping mechanism, not to confuse that with drugs bringing out a hidden illness. Just because some people (very few) out there can use drugs "responsibly" does not erase the negative consequences. It doesn't mean that drugs are "good" or "fine" either.

And a BIG part of it is the socio-economic positioning. Drugs never have this positive "creativity" and "intellect" enhancing affect in the ghetto or the hood. The kids with the parents who can afford (literally/fiscally and figuratively) to steer them in the right path, spiritually and intellectually to use drugs "responsibly" usually come from a little bit higher place than the fringes of society. To me, looking at drugs as a positive force comes from the idealism about the world that some people can (literally/fiscally) afford to have instead of everyone else's reality because they sit above it, watching.

I somewhat agree with the straight edge concept that legal, taxed drugs ( like nicotine and coffee; which I hated once I realized some people cannot function without it) and illegal drugs are a crutch (how many artists cannot function in most areas of life clean? too many) but I'm into "live and let live" BUT I'm not as idealistic as other people. But I also realize it doesn't matter; weed would be legal if Hearst didn't see it as a threat to his $. Animals like to get high, too.

Besides that, as with prostitution de-criminalizing it will not make the depravity and negative effects of being considered a criminal act evaporate. The effects of those things were around before laws against both were written because of the human emotions/motivations that gravitate towards drug use.

Btw, I wasn't saying drugs should be illegal(I believe prostitution should be de-criminalized. That doesn't mean I think the negative things associated with it will disappear once it does get de-criminalized/less penalized).

Alcohol and drug use has been ruining my family since the early 1900s. I wouldn't make either illegal. I just have a problem with the idea that these things can be used/done in such a way were there's minimal negative consequence or can be used as an enhancement in some way.

Just saying that idealism doesn't make something "good" and that oppression of non-taxed addicting substances does not mean that it's something positive "the man"/society doesn't want you to benefit from.

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Permalink Reply by Rage_Proletaire on June 16, 2010 at 11:52am

Madamoiselle De Sade said:

...That's like how drugs = creativity is not always correct. Just because it worked for some people does not mean it will work for everyone or that it even helps people get a leg up on lost artistic/intellectual potential in the first place...

I never said there was any guarantee of intellectual endowment in taking drugs, nor that every person (who takes them) shares that perspective. Like someone pointed out before, it’s similar to religion, as far as I’m concerned: maybe it does what you need it to do, if you wish to think so. The perspective exists, no matter how folklorish or silly it might be; I can’t disregard it, for that reason.

Of course, there are people who are probably better off with their legally prescribed cocktails (ex: Praxil, Somatrol, etc), if being a functional and productive member of society is their aim. Not my place to decide how one should go about regulating their abilitiy to perform in daily life...

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Permalink Reply by Madamoiselle De Sade on June 16, 2010 at 11:55am

"Drugs (legal, prescribed, taxed as well) aren't all that great" is also valid.

Power comes from within.

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Permalink Reply by Rage_Proletaire on June 16, 2010 at 12:02pm

Madamoiselle De Sade said:

"Drugs (legal, prescribed, taxed as well) aren't all that great" is also valid.

Power comes from within.

I don't disagree with that at all.

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Permalink Reply by Fashionfreak on June 16, 2010 at 12:57pm

anyone who does these things to be cool is a fucking loser.

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Permalink Reply by LesYpersound on June 16, 2010 at 1:58pm

"Libertarians think just because they have the intellect/respect to exist without laws and regulations that everyone else can or has the same intellect/respect as well. Idealism."
What are authoritarians then... realists?
Addiction treatment and support programs are a great thing. Not seeing drugs as evil or the cause for the ills in a society isn't being "positive" it's just not being reactionary. The war on drugs is a waste of money... and doesn't help folk w/ their addictions. I'm not too sympathetic w/ the idea that gov't must protect the people from themselves kind of thing.

"To me, looking at drugs as a positive force comes from the idealism about the world that some people can (literally/fiscally) afford to have instead of everyone else's reality because they sit above it, watching."
I don't think it's necessarily a positive stance... i think it's more objective than anything and way less reactionary.

the point is--drugs being illegal hasn't done shit to stop people from using or getting addicted. so if we really want to solve the problem obviously demonizing drugs as if it's the only thing "causing" addiction hasn't been the answer for over 30 years. keeping on w/ that reactionary bish is just insanity defined... and the ppl who are suffering from drug laws and three strikes yer out laws are those ppl you're trying to defend or protect or whatever--the underprivileged. if ppl really gave a shit about the ppl at the bottom who are suffering they'd invest in treatment and jobs programs for those communities.

the paralysis occurs way before the actual addiction... be it in their mindsets, trauma histories, or not being able to secure a job... i just refuse to think that the only thing wrong in those communities are the drugs. addiction just compounds the problems.

and how in the world would taxes stave off addiction?

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Permalink Reply by Rage_Proletaire on June 16, 2010 at 2:27pm

LesYpersound said:

...I'm not too sympathetic w/ the idea that gov't must protect the people from themselves kind of thing...

"To me, looking at drugs as a positive force comes from the idealism about the world that some people can (literally/fiscally) afford to have instead of everyone else's reality because they sit above it, watching."
I don't think it's necessarily a positive stance... i think it's more objective than anything and way less reactionary...

^^ I didn't have the words (or the time to take to develop them) earlier, but yeah...

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Permalink Reply by Madamoiselle De Sade on June 17, 2010 at 5:38am

" What are authoritarians then... realists?

Authoritarianism is an exaggeration of my point. If men were angels there'd be no need for laws.
So... .because I recognize that drugs aren't all positive I'm being oppressive?

Addiction treatment and support programs are a great thing. Not seeing drugs as evil or the cause for the ills in a society isn't being "positive" it's just not being reactionary.

I don't see them as the cause of all evil. I see them as a part of the problem that are rarely ever used CORRECTLY- to help- and really just exacerbate problems instead of alleviating them. Because hardly anyone uses them to improve or enrich their lives, only to numb the pain. Assuming that someone who doesn't see drugs so ideally see them as the root of all evil is reactionary, tho.

The war on drugs is a waste of money... and doesn't help folk w/ their addictions. I'm not too sympathetic w/ the idea that gov't must protect the people from themselves kind of thing.

I never said I supported any of that. I'm just being real about drug use. Drugs are not Bob Dylan.
I never said I supported the war on drugs. All I said is "drugs aren't that great" and "drugs are part of the problem because people don't use with the right goals in mind" <-----which you ignored. Because you think I'm some kind of anti-drug reactionary person.

I don't think it's necessarily a positive stance... i think it's more objective than anything and way less reactionary.
Again I'm not being reactionary. I'm talking about people on crack and meth as well as artists who do cocaine to open their minds.

the point is--drugs being illegal hasn't done shit to stop people from using or getting addicted. so if we really want to solve the problem obviously demonizing drugs as if it's the only thing "causing" addiction hasn't been the answer for over 30 years. keeping on w/ that reactionary bish is just insanity defined... and the ppl who are suffering from drug laws and three strikes yer out laws are those ppl you're trying to defend or protect or whatever--the underprivileged. if ppl really gave a shit about the ppl at the bottom who are suffering they'd invest in treatment and jobs programs for those communities.

Do you have so little respect for my opinion that you actually believe that I think drugs cause addiction?
Do you have so little respect for my intelligence and the things I've posted here to actually think that I believe drugs cause addiction? Just because I recognize it can be hard to quit does NOT mean that I think drugs cause addiction. You're seeing things I never said just because I realize drugs are no paradise.

Again, I am not someone who demonizes drugs but I refuse to believe they are as positive as you think. Not because I see them as evil but because of how the majority uses them. I'm talking about the reality of drug use in America, not some idealistic paradise where people use drugs to enhance their lost potential.

I don't condone of the war on drugs. I don't believe drugs should be illegal. I just think there's a reality to drug use that goes far beyond using to tap into creativity. I'm also keeping the poor junkies in mind. I'm not soley thinking about the folks who use and can afford to use and get clean. I'm looking at the negative too.

Most people who use are not doing it with the right goals in mind. That is the reality of drugs.

I don't think they should be made illegal because of this. I'm just saying that sometimes, it's better not to start because most people aren't self aware to know that the propensity to become an addict exists in them.

Drugs don't help social problems, they make them worse and deflect from the real problems.

Drug usage AND trying to ban drug usage distracts leaders and the people from the real issues.

Authorities see drug use and assume drugs are the problem and spend all their time trying to fix that instead of the real issues that cause drug use in the first place.

^^^is that reactionary bullshit? Is that me thinking drugs are the root of all evil?

Again, I AM NOT ANTI-DRUG. I DO NOT SEE DRUGS AS EVIL. Just because I don't think you even need drugs to be creative does not mean as see them as "the root of all evil. Just because I don't think they are a paradise does not mean I see them as the root of all evil. I'm calling it down the middle. They're not great, good or bad.
I'm not pro drug but I am not anti drug. I understand the need for leveling out. I've smoked weed, I've done speed, I have a thing for downers. I get it. I get how someone can see them as a need for creativity but that's not what the majority uses them for. I don't think they should be illegal (I wish they were legal so I didn't have to jump through hoops to get things) but I don't see them as entirely positive. I'm not approaching this with idealism.

the paralysis occurs way before the actual addiction... be it in their mindsets, trauma histories, or not being able to secure a job... i just refuse to think that the only thing wrong in those communities are the drugs. addiction just compounds the problems.

When and where did I say the ONLY problem was drug usage? I thought I was pretty clear that the pre-existing problems cause usage and that usage doesn't make those problems go away.

Just because I say something that not completely pro-drug then all of a sudden I'm anti-drug and seeing drugs as the root of all evil and am reactionary?

Drugs aren't good or bad. They do more harm than good because most people don't take them to help them get a message of change out to the world and authorities misinterpret drug use as the cause of social ills instead of a symptom.

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Permalink Reply by Madamoiselle De Sade on June 17, 2010 at 6:04am

Great. I took to long to edit the botched quotes now I can't edit. I think you're recognize my own dialogue. I'd just like to add that I brought up the poor and underprivileged because most of us don't use to bring out or hidden potential and live a better life, we use to cope with what we have. Not to change or to grow but to numb. That's most of us. The giant hopeless mass. I'm NOT saying that drugs cause the hopelessness, just that drugs make people even more powerless in general under the guise of having great power. When that hope inducing high wears off, man does it burn. I never said they should be illegal.

I'd also like to say that I've spent most of my life trying to convince my ignorant family that whiskey (and anything else) does not get people hooked. So to assume that because I'm not pro-drug means that I see drugs as the root of all evil or the cause of all social ills or that I believe drugs cause addiction is really insulting.

I'm not pro drug or anti- drug. I'm right down the middle because I can understand both sides. The majority of people don't even think of drugs correctly. They don't think of them as an excuse instead of a consciousness tool.

I wish drugs were legal so I could get them without jumping through hoops (I'd already be on cocaine) and having to worry excessively. I recognize how they are applied by the self- ignorant (most people are not self aware to realize that addiction agents exist within them so for most self-ignorant folks it's better not to start) but that does not mean I believe they should be illegal.

I'm typing this high on Hydrocon, right now btw.