... the other Black experience
Recently I told James Spooner he was the Black Malcolm McLaren
Turns out he left & turned over AP to somebody else and THAT's when it started turning into Toyotapunk. This is pretty much the whole Facebook convo. The rest was irrelevant to the topic. Also I'm bipolar so expect some rambling:
ok. but i wonder if yu really feel like that for some reason?
what was that message all about?
oops... got too high
ok. but i wonder if yu really feel like that for some reason?
Just for the record I havent been involved with afropunk since it went
toyota .
james
toyota .
james
You're the Black Malcolm McLaren to me man. I started thinking that as soon as I saw those ads...but on the other hand, I think AP had a
hugely unsung role in pushing society to accept Black people being into
things besides our template. So it "balanced out" in my eyes.
I just whine because the punk scene that was already in existence since
before we were born was the one who taught so many of us kids the DIY
ethic, that it was ok to be ourselves regardless of race, etc...not
Toyota, not our parents, not these mainstream mohawk/hipster/scene etc,
sheep either. In my eyes, you went to Africa, said "WTF?? I'm not Black
enough?"...then you made a great Black documentary, then went "fuck punk
rock it's not Black enough". It wouldn't be Mexican enough either if
the fucking kids didn't come into the fucking scene, but they do, so
there's plenty for them there...in the authentic, cheap, multicultural,
resourceful, all-ages, DIY punk scene. But a private company making a
mini-scene, and herding us to it made a lot more sense in my American
born eyes. "Ah yes, another fucking "cracker"(the real meaning not the
newer slur) to tell us po' lil' Black folk where to go & what to do
in YET ANOTHER box...oh it's 'set apart' from the punk scene? well that
must be cause I'm so special...the other punk scene wouldn't know what
to do with my Black ass! I'll settle for my little scene then &
rejoice" (cue old spirituals)
fucking BRUJERIA, LOS CRUDOS, THE HATERZ, LUTA ARMADA, BAD BRAINS, and especially in our case PURE
HELL...you getting me? ain't had my meds yet & starting to not make
sense, but anyway, yeah that was my image of you. you're saying that's
not accurate?
PS I didn't tell you cause I didn't wanna discourage you from doing more of your good films & shit or working with these ex-shut-in Black
rockers.
you know how nice I am when I'm not hitting people.
You do good work, just the "trip to Africa trauma" story in old interviews
combined with the separatism and corporate ads blazing on AP painted a
weird picture.
hugely unsung role in pushing society to accept Black people being into
things besides our template. So it "balanced out" in my eyes.
I just whine because the punk scene that was already in existence since
before we were born was the one who taught so many of us kids the DIY
ethic, that it was ok to be ourselves regardless of race, etc...not
Toyota, not our parents, not these mainstream mohawk/hipster/scene etc,
sheep either. In my eyes, you went to Africa, said "WTF?? I'm not Black
enough?"...then you made a great Black documentary, then went "fuck punk
rock it's not Black enough". It wouldn't be Mexican enough either if
the fucking kids didn't come into the fucking scene, but they do, so
there's plenty for them there...in the authentic, cheap, multicultural,
resourceful, all-ages, DIY punk scene. But a private company making a
mini-scene, and herding us to it made a lot more sense in my American
born eyes. "Ah yes, another fucking "cracker"(the real meaning not the
newer slur) to tell us po' lil' Black folk where to go & what to do
in YET ANOTHER box...oh it's 'set apart' from the punk scene? well that
must be cause I'm so special...the other punk scene wouldn't know what
to do with my Black ass! I'll settle for my little scene then &
rejoice" (cue old spirituals)
fucking BRUJERIA, LOS CRUDOS, THE HATERZ, LUTA ARMADA, BAD BRAINS, and especially in our case PURE
HELL...you getting me? ain't had my meds yet & starting to not make
sense, but anyway, yeah that was my image of you. you're saying that's
not accurate?
PS I didn't tell you cause I didn't wanna discourage you from doing more of your good films & shit or working with these ex-shut-in Black
rockers.
you know how nice I am when I'm not hitting people.
You do good work, just the "trip to Africa trauma" story in old interviews
combined with the separatism and corporate ads blazing on AP painted a
weird picture.
The thing is bro , I left afropunk the company the same year it got corporate sponsorship. so I have nothing to do with that.
And for better or worse when I was doing 5 dollar afropunk shows about 200 people would come out. I could pay the bands and I was making money to pay rent. Now literally thosands of people come to the fest because its free the bands get paid more but there was actually more money to be made in the diy model. That's in the short term anyway. There was actually more money to be made in the diy model. That in the short term anyway.
all that said, Im just a dude trying to make art. Afropunk became a
business, so I bounced. Id rather struggle to make ar than struggle to
make money.
james
ps. it was st. lucia not africa and I appreciate your roll in getting the community started.
And for better or worse when I was doing 5 dollar afropunk shows about 200 people would come out. I could pay the bands and I was making money to pay rent. Now literally thosands of people come to the fest because its free the bands get paid more but there was actually more money to be made in the diy model. That's in the short term anyway. There was actually more money to be made in the diy model. That in the short term anyway.
all that said, Im just a dude trying to make art. Afropunk became a
business, so I bounced. Id rather struggle to make ar than struggle to
make money.
james
ps. it was st. lucia not africa and I appreciate your roll in getting the community started.
well most people are assholes...I'm glad to see you didn't go down that road. As far as I'm concerned like I said, AP had a hugely
unsung role in one of my big life goals getting partially accomplished.
Otherwise it was like saving the whales. EVENTUALLY it would have, but
not this fast, where I would be young enough to enjoy it. (Even though
we still got a ways to go for acceptance, kids have more freedom &
get less beat-downs now over that shit) MTV, BET and the other
corporations didn't give a shit. I thought YOU had turned into one of
those guys...you know, the guys who run "BLACK Entertainment Television"
while excluding all this Black music we listen to. ON PURPOSE, YEAR
AFTER YEAR.
That's great to know though that you handed it off & that's where all the McLaren bullshit came in. Regardless, even
thinking you had just become another capitalist severing ties from his
past & looking out for number one, I still appreciated YOUR work.
As far as the guy running AP now, he's not you. I don't give a shit why he
does what he does. As far as I know he wasn't even one of us (a Black
kid from the DIY punk scene). Who is this guy? Don't even tell me cause I
don't care. The end justified the means enough for me just to be happy
it's there...if it goes Disney it goes Disney, but as far as our battles
to dispell a little conservative ignorance the "damage" is done. A lot
more people know we exist now. They can no longer claim we dont &
use that to violate our rights to physical safety & lifestyle
choices based on the color of our skin without acknowledging they're a
dumbass. That doesn't go for everybody, but it was witnessed by enough
people that it changed society. People can say I'm exagerrating but I
don't think I am. I think AP did this. I think if you hadn't bought that
camera, the fucking poser mohawks on the gangsters, etc...none of that
shit would have happened. It ended up being more good than bad, just
like I thought it would when I was dreaming as a teenager.
As far as the Africa comment I apologize. I only meant it *strictly in the
context of my perception* of you still being at the helm of AP running
it like a wannabe "AOL" (exaggeration) like I explained...not what
you're doing in reality now. We all got scars, but I thought with the
facts I had...that what you had done was go to Africa, say "I'm not
Black enough?" then come back...use DIY and what not you learned as a
youth to start a GOOD project, THEN to separate instead of unifylater,
after goading and absorbing some of the more conservative (albiet
misfit) fans words on tour; doing a good thing while doing an ignorant
thing, then becoming a hipster CEO to boot. If it's one thing I can't
stand, it's hipster CEOs. But I digress. Hope I make sense cause u know
with this bipolar I can never really tell. Anyway to finish up
Now that you're telling me that's NOT the case I'm happy as hell. You know
that saying about punk rockers...something like "they say they don't
care about anything because they actually care too much" somethin like
that.
unsung role in one of my big life goals getting partially accomplished.
Otherwise it was like saving the whales. EVENTUALLY it would have, but
not this fast, where I would be young enough to enjoy it. (Even though
we still got a ways to go for acceptance, kids have more freedom &
get less beat-downs now over that shit) MTV, BET and the other
corporations didn't give a shit. I thought YOU had turned into one of
those guys...you know, the guys who run "BLACK Entertainment Television"
while excluding all this Black music we listen to. ON PURPOSE, YEAR
AFTER YEAR.
That's great to know though that you handed it off & that's where all the McLaren bullshit came in. Regardless, even
thinking you had just become another capitalist severing ties from his
past & looking out for number one, I still appreciated YOUR work.
As far as the guy running AP now, he's not you. I don't give a shit why he
does what he does. As far as I know he wasn't even one of us (a Black
kid from the DIY punk scene). Who is this guy? Don't even tell me cause I
don't care. The end justified the means enough for me just to be happy
it's there...if it goes Disney it goes Disney, but as far as our battles
to dispell a little conservative ignorance the "damage" is done. A lot
more people know we exist now. They can no longer claim we dont &
use that to violate our rights to physical safety & lifestyle
choices based on the color of our skin without acknowledging they're a
dumbass. That doesn't go for everybody, but it was witnessed by enough
people that it changed society. People can say I'm exagerrating but I
don't think I am. I think AP did this. I think if you hadn't bought that
camera, the fucking poser mohawks on the gangsters, etc...none of that
shit would have happened. It ended up being more good than bad, just
like I thought it would when I was dreaming as a teenager.
As far as the Africa comment I apologize. I only meant it *strictly in the
context of my perception* of you still being at the helm of AP running
it like a wannabe "AOL" (exaggeration) like I explained...not what
you're doing in reality now. We all got scars, but I thought with the
facts I had...that what you had done was go to Africa, say "I'm not
Black enough?" then come back...use DIY and what not you learned as a
youth to start a GOOD project, THEN to separate instead of unifylater,
after goading and absorbing some of the more conservative (albiet
misfit) fans words on tour; doing a good thing while doing an ignorant
thing, then becoming a hipster CEO to boot. If it's one thing I can't
stand, it's hipster CEOs. But I digress. Hope I make sense cause u know
with this bipolar I can never really tell. Anyway to finish up
Now that you're telling me that's NOT the case I'm happy as hell. You know
that saying about punk rockers...something like "they say they don't
care about anything because they actually care too much" somethin like
that.
Shit, I am who I am only because of the kind of thinking that made you put everything including your reputation and livelyhood on the
line to move a few more steps forward in the American civil rights war.
The one people claim is over, while continuing to hold us down.
So it ain't that I was all like "FUCK James!". I was more just annoyed
that I thought you sold out the same people you claimed solidarity with
& stabbed us in the back...punk rockers AND Black rockers, so on the
one hand I went "aw hell naw", and on the other hand I went
"wellllllllll...you know what though? we're still a lot better off now,
let him do his thing". (that's the problem with being somewhat famous
James...your rep grows with or without your input, or you even actually
being there)
ps. Thanks a lot for taking away my satisfaction of calling out a McLaren. xD
line to move a few more steps forward in the American civil rights war.
The one people claim is over, while continuing to hold us down.
So it ain't that I was all like "FUCK James!". I was more just annoyed
that I thought you sold out the same people you claimed solidarity with
& stabbed us in the back...punk rockers AND Black rockers, so on the
one hand I went "aw hell naw", and on the other hand I went
"wellllllllll...you know what though? we're still a lot better off now,
let him do his thing". (that's the problem with being somewhat famous
James...your rep grows with or without your input, or you even actually
being there)
ps. Thanks a lot for taking away my satisfaction of calling out a McLaren. xD
haha. thanks. well spread the word. just let the people who were there with us in
the beginning know I am the same dude I always was. And its for that
reason they dont hear from me on the site any more."
From the horses mouth, to anybody who gives a shit.
{edited slightly to save James some grief, but nothin important}
the beginning know I am the same dude I always was. And its for that
reason they dont hear from me on the site any more."
From the horses mouth, to anybody who gives a shit.
{edited slightly to save James some grief, but nothin important}
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Q.A.Bradford on -
Deep.
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Permalink Reply by Fashionfreak on -
hmmm, thanks for posting this.
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Permalink Reply by Rage_Proletaire on -
Fashionfreak said:hmmm, thanks for posting this.
^^ Ditto.
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Permalink Reply by Golem_3 on -
well, it aint like people are making millions of $$$ by being associated with AP.
and, to be fair, AP hasn't gone totally mainstream. Its not owned by Viacom or Time Warner.
Every festival needs sponsors, and really, if I were organizing one, I'd need sponsors too (unless I didn't mind hosting it at a little hole-in-the-wall club).
honestly, I just KNEW that some AP folks here were like "James is makin money. But what about ME? I helped him do such & such."
I kinda get the impression that James felt pressured (due to the fact that there would've been a lot of hands in his pocket).
Even if James WAS involved with the business aspect of AP, that doesn't change who he is.
Money is not a disease that you catch.
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Permalink Reply by LesYpersound on -
^^^ eh.
you don't always need national/transnational corporate sponsors whose product/goals/interests have nothing to do w/ whatever your fest is about. what the heck does toyota have to do w/ black punks?
and i'm glad i had no idea about any of the politics and money shit if that stuff really went down...
also, a few things Calvin--
yes, "we" do care too much. :/ good or bad thing, i def think it's true.
and i lol'd at shut-in black rockers... :p
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Permalink Reply by Civilized Radical Films on
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Well I know what's gonna make the BEEF VI DVD.......
So the question is....who "owns" AP?
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Permalink Reply by Compound Egret on -
Pretty interesting convo. It explains what has transpired and the different "feel" of the site that many noticed. I think this sort of thing should have been in a blogpost the first week of new ownership though. James also has some nice bikes on his FB page.
As to the money situation, I HOPE James got paid and don't have any problems with that. This site hasn't cost me a dime over the years, but has introduced me to some great people, art, and resources I never would have known about. I think back to being an isolated Black skater and metal fan back before some of you were born. If someone told me about a pre internet equivalent of this board or the old board and said it was going to cost me 5 bucks a month, it would have seemed like a bargain to chat with someone in BFE who I can relate to on a lot of different levels. Now it's free.
It's not perfect now, but it wasn't perfect in the black board era. I remember people talking about litmus tests and these "new people" in 2004! Things are "hipsterized", but that's life. We all come back here for some reason so it can't be too bad.
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Permalink Reply by LesYpersound on
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no one owns the mov't/idea, but Matthew runs the site, right?
i def appreciate the boards... :]
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Permalink Reply by Golem_3 on
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LesYpersound said:
fair enough, but I'm not just referring to corporations like Toyota. Would people feel better if it were Bill Cosby or Oprah Winfrey sponsoring the AP fest? If the AP fests were sponsored by companies that supply Spooner's materials for making his bikes, what would his response have been? Its like when people were criticizing Saul Williams for allowing Nike to use his song in a commercial. People were like "how could you do a Nike commercial?" He said "really, I'm thinking 'why are they doing a Saul Williams commercial?"^^^ eh.
you don't always need national/transnational corporate sponsors whose product/goals/interests have nothing to do w/ whatever your fest is about. what the heck does toyota have to do w/ black punks?
People say they hate big business, but then they shop at Wal-Mart, and buy a garden salad at McDonalds.
Besides, its not so much where the money came from, but what we do with it, and who we help within the business.
James leaving AP was his personal choice, and I understand totally. But, we can't act like the word "business" is a death-wish.
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Permalink Reply by Golem_3 on
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ya know somethin,...the more I think about it, I think James out-grew AfroPunk. He just wanted to focus on other things. He didn't want to be bothered with it anymore. Simple as that.
I seriously don't understand some of yall with the mentality that getting money from a sponsor is bad.
1st of all- I'm sure James isn't working for free.
2nd- we all support corporations (one way or another).
3rd- what happened to "being creative" and using that money for something to counter-act your fear of being all "Disney"?
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Permalink Reply by Xombie Panik on -
Golem_3 said:honestly, I just KNEW that some AP folks here were like "James is makin money. But what about ME? I helped him do such & such." I kinda get the impression that James felt pressured (due to the fact that there would've been a lot of hands in his pocket). Even if James WAS involved with the business aspect of AP, that doesn't change who he is. Money is not a disease that you catch.
I was the first member of the online community, & grinding to build it up for years, so that remark resembles me...but I have been below Federal poverty level my whole life, when I could have EASILY have made myself some money when I became an adult. I don't care about money, so no jealously here. This convo came out of passion for shit I believe in. When I'm off the clock from whatever shitty job I hold at the time, all the rest of the grinding I do is purely because I'm doing something I think more people should be doing. It's some kinda weird and fun life obsession with me.
Pointing out the positive is good, lest you forget it exists, but there's usually some bad with the good in important situations, so being a skeptical critical thinker like myself is also a positive.
My Pop spent his whole life so far chasing money, ignoring family and more meaningful life priorities, so in my biased eyes it might as well be "a disease"...some people can handle it, most can't...but that could be a whole nother topic.
Golem_3 said:People say they hate big business, but then they shop at Wal-Mart, and buy a garden salad at McDonalds.
Besides, its not so much where the money came from, but what we do with it, and who we help within the business.
James leaving AP was his personal choice, and I understand totally. But, we can't act like the word "business" is a death-wish."
My clothes come from thrift stores, I quit watching TV in 2001, and I shop at ALDI, which albiet being a big corporation just has the prices I can afford. When people don't live like that, or write thier alderman, or do any activism etc...I don't blame everybody because most people don't even know how many little alternatives there are as far as things you can change in your lifestyle. This one topic is what it is, not "I saw a vegan with a leather wallet" or whatever. Black punk starts movement focused around Black punks. Why reach for more subjects for your arsenal when there's damn near a whole short story in the opening post to work with
I agree just going into business in itself ain't "the devil"...but you know what, some street gang crews are cool too...and don't kick up dust unless somebody comes to bang them. Does that make you wanna go join one right now? Nothing wrong with skepticism.
I hope that made sense, my annoying ass bipolar is acting up.
Lianne La Havas - Is Your Love...?
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