... the other Black experience
Why women are leaving men for other women
Why women are leaving men for other women
(OPRAH.COM) -- Lately, a new kind of sisterly love seems to be in the air. In the past few years, Sex and the City's Cynthia Nixon left a boyfriend after a decade and a half and started dating a woman (and talked openly about it).
Actress Lindsay Lohan and DJ Samantha Ronson flaunted their relationship from New York to Dubai. Katy Perry's song "I Kissed a Girl" topped the charts. "The L Word," "Work Out," and "Top Chef" are featuring gay women on TV, and there's even talk of a lesbian reality show in the works.
Certainly nothing is new about women having sex with women, but we've arrived at a moment in the popular culture when it all suddenly seems almost fashionable -- or at least, acceptable.
Statistics on how many women have traded boyfriends and husbands for girlfriends are hard to come by. Although the U.S. Census Bureau keeps track of married, divorced, single, and even same-sex partners living together, it doesn't look for the stories behind those numbers.
But experts like Binnie Klein, a Connecticut-based psychotherapist and lecturer in Yale's department of psychiatry, agree that alternative relationships are on the rise.
"It's clear that a change in sexual orientation is imaginable to more people than ever before, and there's more opportunity -- and acceptance -- to cross over the line," says Klein, noting that a half-dozen of her married female patients in the past few years have fallen in love with women. "Most are afraid that if they don't go for it, they'll end up with regrets."
Feminist philosopher Susan Bordo, Ph.D, a professor of English and gender and women's studies at the University of Kentucky and author of "Unbearable Weight: Feminism, Western Culture, and the Body," also agrees that in the current environment, more women may be stepping out of the conventional gender box.
"When a taboo is lifted or diminished, it's going to leave people freer to pursue things," she says.
"So it makes sense that we would see women, for all sorts of reasons, walking through that door now that the culture has cracked it open. Of course, we shouldn't imagine that we're living in a world where all sexual choices are possible. Just look at the cast of 'The L Word' and it's clear that only a certain kind of lesbian -- slim and elegant or butch in just the right androgynous way -- is acceptable to mainstream culture."
That said, of the recent high-profile cases, it's Cynthia Nixon's down-to-earth attitude that may have blazed a trail for many women. In 1998, when "Sex and the City" debuted on HBO, she was settled in a long-term relationship with Danny Mozes, an English professor, with whom she had two children.
They hadn't gotten married: "I was wary of it and felt like it was potentially a trap, so I steered clear of it," Nixon said in an interview with London's Daily Mirror.
In 2004, after ending her 15-year relationship with Mozes, Nixon began seeing Christine Marinoni, at the time a public school advocate whom she'd met while working on a campaign to reduce class sizes in New York City. Marinoni was a great support when the actress was diagnosed with breast cancer.
Far from hiding the relationship, Nixon has spoken freely in TV and newspaper interviews about it not being a big deal.
"I have been with men all my life and had never met a woman I had fallen in love with before," she told the Daily Mirror. "But when I did, it didn't seem so strange. It didn't change who I am. I'm just a woman who fell in love with a woman." Oprah.com: Cynthia Nixon's new life
Over the past several decades, scientists have struggled in fits and starts to get a handle on sexual orientation. Born or bred? Can it change during one's lifetime?
A handful of studies in the 1990s, most of them focused on men, suggested that homosexuality is hardwired. In one study, researchers linked DNA markers in the Xq28 region of the X chromosome to gay males. But a subsequent larger study failed to replicate the results, leaving the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association to speculate that sexual orientation probably has multiple causes, including environmental, cognitive, and biological factors.
Today, however, a new line of research is beginning to approach sexual orientation as much less fixed than previously thought, especially when it comes to women. The idea that human sexuality forms a continuum has been around since 1948, when Alfred Kinsey introduced his famous seven-point scale, with zero representing complete heterosexuality, 6 signifying complete homosexuality, and bisexuality in the middle, where many of the men and women he interviewed fell.
The new buzz phrase coming out of contemporary studies is "sexual fluidity."
"People always ask me if this research means everyone is bisexual. No, it doesn't," says Lisa Diamond, Ph.D, associate professor of psychology and gender studies at the University of Utah and author of the 2008 book "Sexual Fluidity: Understanding Women's Love and Desire."
"Fluidity represents a capacity to respond erotically in unexpected ways due to particular situations or relationships. It doesn't appear to be something a woman can control."
Furthermore, studies indicate that it's more prevalent in women than in men, according to Bonnie Zylbergold, assistant editor of American Sexuality, an online magazine.
In a 2004 landmark study at Northwestern University, the results were eye-opening. During the experiment, the female subjects became sexually aroused when they viewed heterosexual as well as lesbian erotic films. This was true for both gay and straight women.
Among the male subjects, however, the straight men were turned on only by erotic films with women, the gay ones by those with men.
"We found that women's sexual desire is less rigidly directed toward a particular sex, as compared with men's, and it's more changeable over time," says the study's senior researcher, J. Michael Bailey, Ph.D. "These findings likely represent a fundamental difference between men's and women's brains."
This idea, that the libido can wander back and forth between genders, Diamond admits, may be threatening and confusing to those with conventional beliefs about sexual orientation.
But when the women she's interviewed explain their feelings, it doesn't sound so wild. Many of them say, for example, they are attracted to the person, and not the gender -- moved by traits like kindness, intelligence, and humor, which could apply to a man or a woman.
Most of all, they long for an emotional connection. And if that comes by way of a female instead of a male, the thrill may override whatever heterosexual orientation they had. Oprah.com: Meet women who are making the switch
By Mary A. Fischer from O, The Oprah Magazine, April 2009
(OPRAH.COM) -- Lately, a new kind of sisterly love seems to be in the air. In the past few years, Sex and the City's Cynthia Nixon left a boyfriend after a decade and a half and started dating a woman (and talked openly about it).
Actress Lindsay Lohan and DJ Samantha Ronson flaunted their relationship from New York to Dubai. Katy Perry's song "I Kissed a Girl" topped the charts. "The L Word," "Work Out," and "Top Chef" are featuring gay women on TV, and there's even talk of a lesbian reality show in the works.
Certainly nothing is new about women having sex with women, but we've arrived at a moment in the popular culture when it all suddenly seems almost fashionable -- or at least, acceptable.
Statistics on how many women have traded boyfriends and husbands for girlfriends are hard to come by. Although the U.S. Census Bureau keeps track of married, divorced, single, and even same-sex partners living together, it doesn't look for the stories behind those numbers.
But experts like Binnie Klein, a Connecticut-based psychotherapist and lecturer in Yale's department of psychiatry, agree that alternative relationships are on the rise.
"It's clear that a change in sexual orientation is imaginable to more people than ever before, and there's more opportunity -- and acceptance -- to cross over the line," says Klein, noting that a half-dozen of her married female patients in the past few years have fallen in love with women. "Most are afraid that if they don't go for it, they'll end up with regrets."
Feminist philosopher Susan Bordo, Ph.D, a professor of English and gender and women's studies at the University of Kentucky and author of "Unbearable Weight: Feminism, Western Culture, and the Body," also agrees that in the current environment, more women may be stepping out of the conventional gender box.
"When a taboo is lifted or diminished, it's going to leave people freer to pursue things," she says.
"So it makes sense that we would see women, for all sorts of reasons, walking through that door now that the culture has cracked it open. Of course, we shouldn't imagine that we're living in a world where all sexual choices are possible. Just look at the cast of 'The L Word' and it's clear that only a certain kind of lesbian -- slim and elegant or butch in just the right androgynous way -- is acceptable to mainstream culture."
That said, of the recent high-profile cases, it's Cynthia Nixon's down-to-earth attitude that may have blazed a trail for many women. In 1998, when "Sex and the City" debuted on HBO, she was settled in a long-term relationship with Danny Mozes, an English professor, with whom she had two children.
They hadn't gotten married: "I was wary of it and felt like it was potentially a trap, so I steered clear of it," Nixon said in an interview with London's Daily Mirror.
In 2004, after ending her 15-year relationship with Mozes, Nixon began seeing Christine Marinoni, at the time a public school advocate whom she'd met while working on a campaign to reduce class sizes in New York City. Marinoni was a great support when the actress was diagnosed with breast cancer.
Far from hiding the relationship, Nixon has spoken freely in TV and newspaper interviews about it not being a big deal.
"I have been with men all my life and had never met a woman I had fallen in love with before," she told the Daily Mirror. "But when I did, it didn't seem so strange. It didn't change who I am. I'm just a woman who fell in love with a woman." Oprah.com: Cynthia Nixon's new life
Over the past several decades, scientists have struggled in fits and starts to get a handle on sexual orientation. Born or bred? Can it change during one's lifetime?
A handful of studies in the 1990s, most of them focused on men, suggested that homosexuality is hardwired. In one study, researchers linked DNA markers in the Xq28 region of the X chromosome to gay males. But a subsequent larger study failed to replicate the results, leaving the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association to speculate that sexual orientation probably has multiple causes, including environmental, cognitive, and biological factors.
Today, however, a new line of research is beginning to approach sexual orientation as much less fixed than previously thought, especially when it comes to women. The idea that human sexuality forms a continuum has been around since 1948, when Alfred Kinsey introduced his famous seven-point scale, with zero representing complete heterosexuality, 6 signifying complete homosexuality, and bisexuality in the middle, where many of the men and women he interviewed fell.
The new buzz phrase coming out of contemporary studies is "sexual fluidity."
"People always ask me if this research means everyone is bisexual. No, it doesn't," says Lisa Diamond, Ph.D, associate professor of psychology and gender studies at the University of Utah and author of the 2008 book "Sexual Fluidity: Understanding Women's Love and Desire."
"Fluidity represents a capacity to respond erotically in unexpected ways due to particular situations or relationships. It doesn't appear to be something a woman can control."
Furthermore, studies indicate that it's more prevalent in women than in men, according to Bonnie Zylbergold, assistant editor of American Sexuality, an online magazine.
In a 2004 landmark study at Northwestern University, the results were eye-opening. During the experiment, the female subjects became sexually aroused when they viewed heterosexual as well as lesbian erotic films. This was true for both gay and straight women.
Among the male subjects, however, the straight men were turned on only by erotic films with women, the gay ones by those with men.
"We found that women's sexual desire is less rigidly directed toward a particular sex, as compared with men's, and it's more changeable over time," says the study's senior researcher, J. Michael Bailey, Ph.D. "These findings likely represent a fundamental difference between men's and women's brains."
This idea, that the libido can wander back and forth between genders, Diamond admits, may be threatening and confusing to those with conventional beliefs about sexual orientation.
But when the women she's interviewed explain their feelings, it doesn't sound so wild. Many of them say, for example, they are attracted to the person, and not the gender -- moved by traits like kindness, intelligence, and humor, which could apply to a man or a woman.
Most of all, they long for an emotional connection. And if that comes by way of a female instead of a male, the thrill may override whatever heterosexual orientation they had. Oprah.com: Meet women who are making the switch
By Mary A. Fischer from O, The Oprah Magazine, April 2009
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by kifaru on -
That girl is tripping. Trust me on that. That's just plain heterophobic bullshit. Ask any woman who is bi- and honest they will tell you there are men that can do it right and men who can't. Women who can do it right and women who can't. There's a tone of youtube vidoes about that too. Lesbians talking about how other women can't eat it right. Not to mention that fact that not all women who identify as lesbian are willing to put there mouth on another woman's genitals.
a fraction of death said:I knew a girl who was lezbo in one of my classes a couple years ago. According to her, she found comfort with the fact that females were able to better understand and care for her better than any male ever could...that and females supposedly "eat it" better than men...which is debatable, lol.
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Permalink Reply by Madamoiselle De Sade on -
^^You men are tripping about that- why is it that you take anything a woman says about your/men's sexual prowress seriously but little else? *sigh*
a fraction of death said:lol, did someone else have a story like this in this thread? I didn't read but the first post (skimmed it, actually) then posted mines.
Mlle d. Sade said:a fraction of death said:I knew a girl who was lezbo in one of my classes a couple years ago. According to her, she found comfort with the fact that females were able to better understand and care for her better than any male ever could...that and females supposedly "eat it" better than men...which is debatable, lol.
copy cat!
Anyway, that's not everyone's story so don't base it all on that.
That was my whole post, maybe you should read things, copy cat. :P
She's probably more referring to the way that socially, men have ZERO accountability for their actions and women are expected to bear the weight of those actions.
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Permalink Reply by lyfenlyn on -
That brings back some memories. I went to an all white high school. Pretty much. This gorgeous black boy transferred in, I was like aaaaawwwww yeahhhhhhh. And he starts chatting me up and asks for my phone number. I couldn't believe it. But then he calls me and asks me for a favor. If I can pretend to be his girlfriend cause he's gay. I was like---um, sure ok. We held hands and kissed eachother when we walked to class. Years later I saw him out, and he thanked me. I don't know if that actually scarred me for life against pretty boys.
Mlle d. Sade said:lyfenlyn said:I went to high school with this girl who reminds you sort of how Ellen is. Everyone called her a lez behind her back. People we just waiting for it. Then in college she came out. She told me and I told her I knew. "Why does everyone say that and how come nobody told me! It would have saved me alot of greif!" I told her it wasn't our business and how do you tell some poor girl ..."Uh yeah, Stacey, you need to stop trying to get with Jim cause you are a lesbian." It's up to her to figure it out for herself.
a fraction of death said:I knew a girl who was lezbo in one of my classes a couple years ago. According to her, she found comfort with the fact that females were able to better understand and care for her better than any male ever could...that and females supposedly "eat it" better than men...which is debatable, lol.
ROFL!
A lot of the times, people end up doing what culture has dictated to them as "right". A person can totally convince themselves, live and denial because it's "right".
Some people never figure it out. To me, black non-secular cases of denial are especially sad/troubling.
I once had an obviously closeted black boy ask me "can black people even be gay?" (on top of other intra-racist, homophobic nonsense) with a nervous laugh at the end. I felt bad for him, I still do. He has a thing for my friend but can't own up to it and instead mocks him for being gay. It's a terrible cycle.
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Permalink Reply by Nadia C on -
I've been a boarderline Lesbian most of my life. The only reason why i'd call myself "Bi", which I do, is because i'm *attracted to men. But that attraction is strictly physical. I have yet to find a man that can regale me, psychologically. I guess it *partly stems from the fact that I never knew my Father. That, and i've witnessed the relationships of family members, friends and total strangers with men, and noticed that most of them are full of mindgames, and end in heartache. My own relationships with men have been equivocal...Not to mention life-threatening instances with stalkings that could have turned into rape, and just every day bs I have to deal with from random men. Yet, although some of my sexuality is based on experience, and is therefore, not natural, i've been interested in women since before I knew the words, "Gay", "Straight", or "Lesbian". Women were the first group I looked at sexually. Men's bodies never repulsed me...But they use to look so...Weird. I didn't really start getting into boys until my mid-late teens. So it's really like a tug of war, a struggle I have inside of me, between the learned/experienced, and the innate(Natural...Already within me). I'd still say i'm Bi, though. A Bi girl with a lot of issues, that might never date another man again in her life. Or might. Or might not. Who knows...I just feel I don't want to deal with the emotional devastation, anymore.
So I can relate to the article.
Unfortunately, though. Women-women relationships are no more destined to succeed or fail than straight relationships. And in fact, i've seen the same heartache/mindgames theme play out. I've seen a lot of AGs especially, be all playa playa with their gullible girlfriends. BUT...Just like not all men are chauvinist pigs, not all AGs/or Lesbians are that way....
Life all about finding the right partner. Which can end up being anyone. Of any gender. And of any race.
At least I think so.
I knew Chasing Amy was going to come in handy one day:
Alyssa: You know, I didn't just heed what I was taught, men and women should be together, it's the natural way, that kind of thing. I'm not with you because of what family, society, life tried to instill in me from day one. The way the world is, how seldom it is that you meet that one person who just *gets* you - it's so rare. My parents didn't really have it. There were no examples set for me in the world of male-female relationships. And to cut oneself off from finding that person, to immediately halve your options by eliminating the possibility of finding that one person within your own gender, that just seemed stupid to me. So I didn't. But then you came along. You, the one least likely. I mean, you were a guy.
Holden: Still am.
Alyssa: And while I was falling for you I put a ceiling on that, because you *were* a guy. Until I remembered why I opened the door to women in the first place: to not limit the likelihood of finding that one person who'd complement me so completely. So here we are. I was thorough when I looked for you. And I feel justified lying in your arms, 'cause I got here on my own terms, and I have no question there was some place I didn't look. And for me that makes all the difference.
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Permalink Reply by Madamoiselle De Sade on
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The only reason I identify as bi is because I am physically attracted to *some* men but I think it highly unlikely that I will end up with a man in the future. I haven't yet met a guy that has been anything more it's all "blah" plus most men have tenants of sexism instilled in them from an early age so something is bound to irk me. ..I too find the male body weird. . ..weird.. ..I thought I was the only one who felt like that.
Kevin Smith is a dialogue maestro, you just have to put it out word for word in front of yourself to see what he's saying.
Beautiful post, you gave my feelings wings.
Nadia C said:I've been a boarderline Lesbian most of my life. The only reason why i'd call myself "Bi", which I do, is because i'm *attracted to men. But that attraction is strictly physical. I have yet to find a man that can regale me, psychologically. I guess it *partly stems from the fact that I never knew my Father. That, and i've witnessed the relationships of family members, friends and total strangers with men, and noticed that most of them are full of mindgames, and end in heartache. My own relationships with men have been equivocal...Not to mention life-threatening instances with stalkings that could have turned into rape, and just every day bs I have to deal with from random men. Yet, although some of my sexuality is based on experience, and is therefore, not natural, i've been interested in women since before I knew the words, "Gay", "Straight", or "Lesbian". Women were the first group I looked at sexually. Men's bodies never repulsed me...But they use to look so...Weird. I didn't really start getting into boys until my mid-late teens. So it's really like a tug of war, a struggle I have inside of me, between the learned/experienced, and the innate(Natural...Already within me). I'd still say i'm Bi, though. A Bi girl with a lot of issues, that might never date another man again in her life. Or might. Or might not. Who knows...I just feel I don't want to deal with the emotional devastation, anymore.
So I can relate to the article.
Unfortunately, though. Women-women relationships are no more destined to succeed or fail than straight relationships. And in fact, i've seen the same heartache/mindgames theme play out. I've seen a lot of AGs especially, be all playa playa with their gullible girlfriends. BUT...Just like not all men are chauvinist pigs, not all AGs/or Lesbians are that way....
Life all about finding the right partner. Which can end up being anyone. Of any gender. And of any race.
At least I think so.
I knew Chasing Amy was going to come in handy one day:
Alyssa: You know, I didn't just heed what I was taught, men and women should be together, it's the natural way, that kind of thing. I'm not with you because of what family, society, life tried to instill in me from day one. The way the world is, how seldom it is that you meet that one person who just *gets* you - it's so rare. My parents didn't really have it. There were no examples set for me in the world of male-female relationships. And to cut oneself off from finding that person, to immediately halve your options by eliminating the possibility of finding that one person within your own gender, that just seemed stupid to me. So I didn't. But then you came along. You, the one least likely. I mean, you were a guy.
Holden: Still am.
Alyssa: And while I was falling for you I put a ceiling on that, because you *were* a guy. Until I remembered why I opened the door to women in the first place: to not limit the likelihood of finding that one person who'd complement me so completely. So here we are. I was thorough when I looked for you. And I feel justified lying in your arms, 'cause I got here on my own terms, and I have no question there was some place I didn't look. And for me that makes all the difference.
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Permalink Reply by Nadia C on
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I think men are *suppose to be a little bit "sexists". I think that there is a lot of what we(As woman) call "sexist" in our society, that isn't actually so. (I mean, for example, men ARE the stronger of the two sexes in most instances...So is it really sexists when a man is all macho-macho when it comes to protecting his girlfriend, wife, or family? I don't think so...If I got involved with a man, one of the things I would definitely do is to use him as my bodyguard every time I felt threatened. And I wouldn't call that "sexists" at all, or "weak" on my part. )
Although I would call myself a femenist, I by NO MEANS would mind behaving differently in a relationship(With a man).
The reason i'm a feminist in the first place is because I have to be with the majority of men. The structure of our society, and the psychologies of *most men DICTATES is. I HAVE to be. Otherwise, I would be easy, like the majority of girls in our society (are taught to be). As a result, I would end up used, abused, etc etc. Pregnant. Who knows. My life would end up in ruin. So I have to be distant from most men, and not get close enough to let them have the best of me.
But I am a feminist when it counts. When I HAVE to be.
But sometimes I don't have to be.
If I get into a relationship with a man, It will be with a man with whom I can be free. If I am with the RIGHT man, then I won't have to be al uber-feminists with him...Someone on this site mentioned that relationships aren't about independence. Otherwise, why are you in a relationship? And I agree. I won't feel like it's such a degrading task, making the other person dinner, or washing their clothes, for example. But, of course, this is ONLY if it is not EXPECTED of me, because I am a woman, and if they are willing to do the SAME for me, if I come home from school or work. Stuff like that should be mutual.
There are a LOT of sexist men out there...But then there are a lot men who simply recognize their masculinity gives them an edge over women, and makes them able to do things that most women can't. And they act accordingly. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't go to their heads.
As much as their have been strong women in every society in the history of the world..And that is *definitely a fact which has been *much overlooked.... Men are also the backbone of any modern culture. Sometimes I wish they'd bring more to the plate than their muscle mass...But...They have their uses;)
Mlle d. Sade said:The only reason I identify as bi is because I am physically attracted to *some* men but I think it highly unlikely that I will end up with a man in the future. I haven't yet met a guy that has been anything more it's all "blah" plus most men have tenants of sexism instilled in them from an early age so something is bound to irk me. ..I too find the male body weird. . ..weird.. ..I thought I was the only one who felt like that.
Kevin Smith is a dialogue maestro, you just have to put it out word for word in front of yourself to see what he's saying.
Beautiful post, you gave my feelings wings.
Nadia C said:I've been a boarderline Lesbian most of my life. The only reason why i'd call myself "Bi", which I do, is because i'm *attracted to men. But that attraction is strictly physical. I have yet to find a man that can regale me, psychologically. I guess it *partly stems from the fact that I never knew my Father. That, and i've witnessed the relationships of family members, friends and total strangers with men, and noticed that most of them are full of mindgames, and end in heartache. My own relationships with men have been equivocal...Not to mention life-threatening instances with stalkings that could have turned into rape, and just every day bs I have to deal with from random men. Yet, although some of my sexuality is based on experience, and is therefore, not natural, i've been interested in women since before I knew the words, "Gay", "Straight", or "Lesbian". Women were the first group I looked at sexually. Men's bodies never repulsed me...But they use to look so...Weird. I didn't really start getting into boys until my mid-late teens. So it's really like a tug of war, a struggle I have inside of me, between the learned/experienced, and the innate(Natural...Already within me). I'd still say i'm Bi, though. A Bi girl with a lot of issues, that might never date another man again in her life. Or might. Or might not. Who knows...I just feel I don't want to deal with the emotional devastation, anymore.
So I can relate to the article.
Unfortunately, though. Women-women relationships are no more destined to succeed or fail than straight relationships. And in fact, i've seen the same heartache/mindgames theme play out. I've seen a lot of AGs especially, be all playa playa with their gullible girlfriends. BUT...Just like not all men are chauvinist pigs, not all AGs/or Lesbians are that way....
Life all about finding the right partner. Which can end up being anyone. Of any gender. And of any race.
At least I think so.
I knew Chasing Amy was going to come in handy one day:
Alyssa: You know, I didn't just heed what I was taught, men and women should be together, it's the natural way, that kind of thing. I'm not with you because of what family, society, life tried to instill in me from day one. The way the world is, how seldom it is that you meet that one person who just *gets* you - it's so rare. My parents didn't really have it. There were no examples set for me in the world of male-female relationships. And to cut oneself off from finding that person, to immediately halve your options by eliminating the possibility of finding that one person within your own gender, that just seemed stupid to me. So I didn't. But then you came along. You, the one least likely. I mean, you were a guy.
Holden: Still am.
Alyssa: And while I was falling for you I put a ceiling on that, because you *were* a guy. Until I remembered why I opened the door to women in the first place: to not limit the likelihood of finding that one person who'd complement me so completely. So here we are. I was thorough when I looked for you. And I feel justified lying in your arms, 'cause I got here on my own terms, and I have no question there was some place I didn't look. And for me that makes all the difference.
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Permalink Reply by Madamoiselle De Sade on
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I think men are *suppose to be a little bit "sexists". I think that there is a lot of what we(As woman) call "sexist" in our society, that isn't actually so. (I mean, for example, men ARE the stronger of the two sexes in most instances...So is it really sexists when a man is all macho-macho when it comes to protecting his girlfriend, wife, or family? I don't think so...If I got involved with a man, one of the things I would definitely do is to use him as my bodyguard every time I felt threatened. And I wouldn't call that "sexists" at all, or "weak" on my part. )
I'm not talking about that. I'm fully aware of my low position on the physical strength totem pole and I am well aware of how my status as the weakest makes me a target. I'm talking about ideals about what women should be doing, wearing, ideas about lesbians etc., It's just that "it's a man's world" is so drilled into their heads they don't know they're being sexists.
I'm not willing to bend over and get fucked up the ass by misogynist culture. (which is why that term exists in the first place, women HAVE to take it, men don't). I don't care, I don't HAVE to take it and I won't. If I do, I'll go all the way and be a slave because that's all it is. I'm well aware that I am the weaker sex and there are things I will never be able to do because I am not the preferred gender but I will not be powerless and if that means never having a relationship with a man, so be it. I don't want my spirit compromised.
They have their uses: like money and money makes the word go round- men have most of it and it's their world.
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Permalink Reply by lyfenlyn on
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exactly, so why make me feel like a whore, when you got all the money?
Mlle d. Sade said:I think men are *suppose to be a little bit "sexists". I think that there is a lot of what we(As woman) call "sexist" in our society, that isn't actually so. (I mean, for example, men ARE the stronger of the two sexes in most instances...So is it really sexists when a man is all macho-macho when it comes to protecting his girlfriend, wife, or family? I don't think so...If I got involved with a man, one of the things I would definitely do is to use him as my bodyguard every time I felt threatened. And I wouldn't call that "sexists" at all, or "weak" on my part. )
I'm not talking about that. I'm fully aware of my low position on the physical strength totem pole and I am well aware of how my status as the weakest makes me a target. I'm talking about ideals about what women should be doing, wearing, ideas about lesbians etc., It's just that "it's a man's world" is so drilled into their heads they don't know they're being sexists.
I'm not willing to bend over and get fucked up the ass by misogynist culture. (which is why that term exists in the first place, women HAVE to take it, men don't). I don't care, I don't HAVE to take it and I won't. If I do, I'll go all the way and be a slave because that's all it is. I'm well aware that I am the weaker sex and there are things I will never be able to do because I am not the preferred gender but I will not be powerless and if that means never having a relationship with a man, so be it. I don't want my spirit compromised.
They have their uses: like money and money makes the word go round- men have most of it and it's their world.
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Permalink Reply by Madamoiselle De Sade on
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Power? They really need us to know who's king, who's the subject and who's the boss.
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Permalink Reply by Nadia C on
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Well I definitely see what you mean. I *wasn't talking about "Bending over and taking it" because we're women and therefore should subject ourselves, because we're the weaker sex...No...But what I was saying is that *some things men do is/are justifiably inherent. Thinking that women belong on the bottom, or any of that crap is right. No. That is neither justified, not inherent. Just accepted by society.
But I DEFINITELY get what you're saying. Sounds a lot like me. Cause I most certainly will not allow myself to live my life in vain as someone's arm candy/trophy.
Mlle d. Sade said:I think men are *suppose to be a little bit "sexists". I think that there is a lot of what we(As woman) call "sexist" in our society, that isn't actually so. (I mean, for example, men ARE the stronger of the two sexes in most instances...So is it really sexists when a man is all macho-macho when it comes to protecting his girlfriend, wife, or family? I don't think so...If I got involved with a man, one of the things I would definitely do is to use him as my bodyguard every time I felt threatened. And I wouldn't call that "sexists" at all, or "weak" on my part. )
I'm not talking about that. I'm fully aware of my low position on the physical strength totem pole and I am well aware of how my status as the weakest makes me a target. I'm talking about ideals about what women should be doing, wearing, ideas about lesbians etc., It's just that "it's a man's world" is so drilled into their heads they don't know they're being sexists.
I'm not willing to bend over and get fucked up the ass by misogynist culture. (which is why that term exists in the first place, women HAVE to take it, men don't). I don't care, I don't HAVE to take it and I won't. If I do, I'll go all the way and be a slave because that's all it is. I'm well aware that I am the weaker sex and there are things I will never be able to do because I am not the preferred gender but I will not be powerless and if that means never having a relationship with a man, so be it. I don't want my spirit compromised.
They have their uses: like money and money makes the word go round- men have most of it and it's their world.
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Permalink Reply by Rosenda on -
To respond to the original article up there on the first page, I actually never have thought it was anything guys were or were not doing that causes any increase in women being with women. I just thought it was cause women being with women is overall more accepted by women themselves and also most people in general. It's just a fact of life nowadays, it's not the kiss of death on your job or in your neighborhood, especially out here in the big city of LA, like it certainly was back when I was a little kid in the 60's. Seriously. I've never seen it as anything deliberate a trend against men or anything. Because I just see that it runs along with the "trend" that there are more "out" men with men nowadays than there were when I was a kid.
It's just a fact of life now. I don't necessarily read anything more into it unless it's a specifica case of a particular woman or a particular man who's said that is why they "chose" different than before (and yes I've met a few men and women in my lifetime who've told me that. Not always sure I believe them 100%.)
Nadia and Mlle no woman should be treated like they gotta kowtow to anyone unless they are into that type of relationship specifically. Now that I remember it, it was my Dad even more often than my Mom when I was a teenager that started telling me not to take any disrespect from any man I dated, that no woman should ever accept that, and that it was better to be on your own. Strangely enough they never even discussed homosexual men or women, but they never ever said anything bad about them either.
My parents never said anything period about the subject until I was in my late 20's, and even then it was only positive stuff like "no one should put down anyone because they are gay, man or woman". My pops actually got into a big discussion with some board of education members who were trying to put down a colleage and good friend of his who is lesbian, he said they were trying to make remarks about her private life and he told them that was wrong, and went on to tell me and he and a few other members had to really stand up for her, because they knew she was good at her position there.
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Permalink Reply by kifaru on
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Sometimes you say things so clear and perceptive that I wonder why you're not famous or something. No, bs, no nastiness or undelying agenda, just truth, clear and concise.
Rosenda said:To respond to the original article up there on the first page, I actually never have thought it was anything guys were or were not doing that causes any increase in women being with women. I just thought it was cause women being with women is overall more accepted by women themselves and also most people in general. It's just a fact of life nowadays, it's not the kiss of death on your job or in your neighborhood, especially out here in the big city of LA, like it certainly was back when I was a little kid in the 60's. Seriously. I've never seen it as anything deliberate a trend against men or anything. Because I just see that it runs along with the "trend" that there are more "out" men with men nowadays than there were when I was a kid.
It's just a fact of life now. I don't necessarily read anything more into it unless it's a specifica case of a particular woman or a particular man who's said that is why they "chose" different than before (and yes I've met a few men and women in my lifetime who've told me that. Not always sure I believe them 100%.)
Nadia and Mlle no woman should be treated like they gotta kowtow to anyone unless they are into that type of relationship specifically. Now that I remember it, it was my Dad even more often than my Mom when I was a teenager that started telling me not to take any disrespect from any man I dated, that no woman should ever accept that, and that it was better to be on your own. Strangely enough they never even discussed homosexual men or women, but they never ever said anything bad about them either.
My parents never said anything period about the subject until I was in my late 20's, and even then it was only positive stuff like "no one should put down anyone because they are gay, man or woman". My pops actually got into a big discussion with some board of education members who were trying to put down a colleage and good friend of his who is lesbian, he said they were trying to make remarks about her private life and he told them that was wrong, and went on to tell me and he and a few other members had to really stand up for her, because they knew she was good at her position there.
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